Art for episode 1067

1067: Double Header

Adam Curry & John C. Dvorak

2h 9m
September 9th, 2018
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Cover Art by Scott Adams & Comic Strip Blogger

Visit the Shownotes for episode 1067

Chapters

0:00
Start of Show
Woodstock
  • 0:00
    good good good good good Adam curry
  • 0:02
    Jhansi Devorah award-winning nation
  • 0:07
    media assassination episode 67 this is
  • 0:10
    no agenda the Khan Valley live the tape
  • 0:25
    I'm John Steve all right
  • 0:26
    [Music] John Steve all right
  • 0:30
    whoa so you're in Italy in fact I am as
  • 0:36
    we speak I am probably nursing a
  • 0:39
    hangover from my sister's 25th wedding
  • 0:41
    anniversary which is still their lucky
  • 0:44
    it's Italian alcohol so it should be
  • 0:46
    good yeah so what we've done here is we
  • 0:49
    put together a couple of interview shows
  • 0:50
    I did an interview with Scott Adams and
  • 0:54
    Jasper alright so Dane Jesper is the CEO
  • 0:58
    of sonic net which is a now he's a he's
  • 1:02
    an independent guy he's kind of David to
  • 1:05
    the the behemoth AT&T Goliath no yeah
  • 1:11
    he's actually stringing fiber just all
  • 1:14
    over the kind of parts of the East Bay
  • 1:15
    in San Francisco and I think a Santa
  • 1:18
    Rosa where this operation is and they've
  • 1:20
    always been the like the low-cost to
  • 1:21
    internet provider we've used them as
  • 1:23
    backup here and why why not his primary
  • 1:26
    are they it's just not business quite as
  • 1:29
    fast right the old version the old DSL
  • 1:31
    stuff was not as fast as Comcast right
  • 1:33
    but this will be a lot faster this is
  • 1:35
    gigabit fiber to the home of tth baby
  • 1:39
    yeah so when that comes in that'll make
  • 1:42
    a little I think they'll now I have to
  • 1:45
    very high speed networks so I don't
  • 1:46
    don't worry as much their parent and the
  • 1:50
    price is gonna be like 50 bucks a month
  • 1:52
    oh that's nice yeah that that's very
  • 1:54
    competitive if that's in line with the
  • 1:55
    well is he also gonna try and sell TV
  • 1:58
    services life uses too if that we touch
  • 2:01
    this morning oh good good good good and
  • 2:03
    just kind of I mean I'm gonna listen to
  • 2:05
    I'm listening I probably have already
  • 2:07
    heard this by the time I get to Italy
  • 2:09
    cuz of course I have a copy listening
  • 2:10
    the plane
  • 2:12
    but has has it been a challenge for him
  • 2:15
    with the behemoths has anyone tried to I
  • 2:17
    just want a little tip there is it and
  • 2:18
    one tried to buy him or muscled him out
  • 2:20
    is not yet but apparently more recently
  • 2:24
    they're trying to pass some legislation
  • 2:26
    to make it tougher on the little guys
  • 2:28
    well that's an American it's very common
  • 2:31
    okay specifically if they were chopping
  • 2:34
    down lines in our break-in cable but no
  • 2:36
    there were no takers saboteurs take us
  • 2:40
    into it well first of all we got Scott
  • 2:43
    Adams the famous cartoonist Bert we're
  • 2:45
    gonna talk about him in a second after
  • 2:47
    the first interview the first interview
  • 2:50
    is gonna be Scott Adams oh you're gonna
  • 2:51
    do Scott Adams first yeah interesting
  • 2:54
    choice okay I like it well talk to me
  • 2:57
    about Scott Adams we all know Scott
  • 2:59
    Adams he's a Dilbert guy and he's does a
  • 3:01
    lot of stuff on periscope and he's never
  • 3:03
    really been interviewed like this and
  • 3:06
    I've known him long enough so I could
  • 3:08
    ask some questions that I don't think
  • 3:09
    other people would do now what do you
  • 3:10
    mean he's never been interviewed like
  • 3:12
    this really good interviews where he
  • 3:15
    talks well you have to listen to this
  • 3:17
    interview but there's a lot of stuff
  • 3:18
    that he doesn't normally talk about
  • 3:20
    first of all I don't think I've ever
  • 3:21
    heard of all I don't think I've ever
  • 3:22
    just a sit-down audio only interview
  • 3:25
    with Scott Adams I don't think I've ever
  • 3:27
    heard that audio only where you focused
  • 3:29
    on just audio I don't think I have
  • 3:31
    either yeah this may be the first but I
  • 3:33
    seriously doubt it and this took place
  • 3:36
    at his house yeah went to his house all
  • 3:39
    right I'll tell you what rather than
  • 3:42
    talk about it let's get into it
  • 3:43
    here's my interview with Scott Adams all
  • 3:46
    right I'm here with Scott Adams so
  • 3:48
    you've been cartoon you made your money
  • 3:50
    as a cartoonist correct and I met you 25
  • 3:54
    years ago at Pacific telephone yeah you
  • 3:59
    were an engineer and you were you were
  • 4:02
    actually the first guy who showed me the
  • 4:04
    Internet the first guy who showed me the
  • 4:04
    wow I didn't realize that yeah we had a
  • 4:08
    loan not the internet by but the web the
  • 4:10
    web right yeah yeah we had a little lab
  • 4:12
    I was working that was my day job and we
  • 4:15
    were showing people this this thing
  • 4:17
    called the World Wide Web and it was it
  • 4:21
    was the most one of the most informative
  • 4:24
    times of my life
  • 4:25
    it was in 93 as I recall that sounds
  • 4:28
    right yeah yeah and Dilbert was out a
  • 4:30
    little had been announced but not hadn't
  • 4:32
    heard out enough that I could quit my
  • 4:35
    day job right but you were the anyway
  • 4:39
    you showed it to me you were impressed
  • 4:41
    but you obviously weren't blown away so
  • 4:43
    much that you went out and bought a
  • 4:45
    bunch of domain names like the smart
  • 4:46
    money did no it's worse than that
  • 4:48
    it's worse than that so we would bring
  • 4:51
    customers in and we'd show them all our
  • 4:53
    cool phone company stuff that wasn't
  • 4:55
    interesting to anybody and they were
  • 4:56
    just their eyes would glaze over and
  • 4:58
    then at the end as just sort of a
  • 5:00
    dessert we'd say oh and there's this new
  • 5:03
    thing coming called
  • 5:04
    we call that the World Wide Web then now
  • 5:06
    the Internet and there were exactly two
  • 5:09
    websites you could get to that's at the
  • 5:12
    Smithsonian and some other thing and we
  • 5:14
    would show them that we could see the
  • 5:16
    website at the Smithsonian and look at a
  • 5:18
    couple of still pictures and people
  • 5:20
    would commander their chairs and they
  • 5:22
    say can I do that and we'd say do what
  • 5:25
    you know touch the mouse and make this
  • 5:27
    they needed to touch it they stood up
  • 5:29
    their eyes got big and they said how can
  • 5:32
    we get this and there was no application
  • 5:34
    and and I remember thinking my goodness
  • 5:38
    this is gonna be huge it has that X
  • 5:40
    Factor where people want it even though
  • 5:43
    it's terrible like early cell phones
  • 5:44
    right everybody wanted a cell phone but
  • 5:47
    they were terrible and I cornered our
  • 5:51
    top engineer in the phone company and I
  • 5:53
    said hey if I wanted to invest in this
  • 5:55
    coming thing this worldwide web internet
  • 5:58
    thing what's the one company I should
  • 6:01
    put all my money in and he looks at me
  • 6:03
    and he goes Cisco I go okay what are the
  • 6:06
    other companies and he goes Cisco
  • 6:09
    he goes everything's gonna be Cisco for
  • 6:12
    the next 15 years or whatever it was and
  • 6:16
    so I did not buy Cisco and it's the
  • 6:19
    worst financial decision I've ever made
  • 6:21
    huh well I didn't buy Cisco either but I
  • 6:26
    didn't have some guy telling me to buy
  • 6:27
    it it was pretty obvious in hindsight
  • 6:29
    you can see what happened all the all
  • 6:31
    the points you could
  • 6:33
    done that it could have done that I
  • 6:34
    could have done this it's the worst I
  • 6:36
    mean just if you had bought Apple when
  • 6:39
    Steve Jobs first showed up and kept the
  • 6:41
    stock right you'd be loaded especially
  • 6:44
    about $10,000 with you making a few
  • 6:45
    million dollars but that having kind of
  • 6:48
    been involved in the stock market over
  • 6:49
    the years the thing is you can't hold
  • 6:53
    the stock that long you just won't do it
  • 6:55
    you'll just say oh it's not going to go
  • 6:57
    any higher than it because you can't do
  • 6:59
    it it's impossible unless somebody else
  • 7:01
    buys the stock and puts it into trust
  • 7:03
    and you don't even know you have it that
  • 7:04
    it's a very problematic so any way that
  • 7:08
    you did leave eventually how long were
  • 7:11
    you there at Pacific Bell well eight
  • 7:14
    years there then before that eight years
  • 7:16
    at a big bank and I was doing Dilbert
  • 7:20
    for about six of those years that I was
  • 7:22
    still at the phone company so I was
  • 7:24
    doing two jobs and writing a book at the
  • 7:27
    same time and we were working day and
  • 7:29
    night you were getting your inspiration
  • 7:31
    from the phone company yeah that plus my
  • 7:35
    memories of the the bank so that the big
  • 7:37
    aha of the the bank so that the big
  • 7:38
    was when I when I moved from a bank to a
  • 7:41
    phone company and you'd say to yourself
  • 7:43
    well they have nothing in common two
  • 7:45
    completely different companies and then
  • 7:47
    you watch that the same management
  • 7:50
    problems the same way people think the
  • 7:53
    same way people treat you it was just
  • 7:56
    shockingly similar and that was really
  • 7:59
    the inspiration behind Dilbert is the
  • 8:01
    realization that these things were
  • 8:04
    universal and there were people trapped
  • 8:06
    in jobs all over who probably thought
  • 8:08
    there's nowhere else that this is
  • 8:10
    happening as this could not be happening
  • 8:12
    anywhere else it's impossible it happens
  • 8:14
    everywhere else it's impossible it happens
  • 8:15
    that was a GE well you had I thought we
  • 8:17
    thought the comic strip was genius
  • 8:19
    because it was the only one that
  • 8:21
    actually addressed kind of day-to-day
  • 8:23
    work a day office working issues
  • 8:27
    everything else was you know was like a
  • 8:29
    it didn't it was cowboy stuff or just
  • 8:31
    stupid animals making punchlines that
  • 8:34
    you know cracking up to or trying to
  • 8:36
    crack you up with him one-liner no III
  • 8:39
    don't want to claim genius and
  • 8:41
    inspiration totally because I'll take a
  • 8:43
    little bit but I also have an MBA
  • 8:46
    and one of the main things you learn in
  • 8:49
    Business School is listen to the
  • 8:50
    customers give them what they want
  • 8:52
    that's the sort of thing that artists
  • 8:54
    don't do and when Dilbert came out and
  • 8:58
    the email was coming out at about the
  • 8:59
    same time or getting popular about the
  • 9:01
    same time people started emailing me
  • 9:03
    because I put my email address between
  • 9:05
    the panel's of the strip and they'd say
  • 9:08
    we we love your comic when dill burrs in
  • 9:10
    the office we don't care for it that
  • 9:12
    much when he's just at home doing
  • 9:14
    generic things which is as you said what
  • 9:16
    most comic strips were about it's just
  • 9:18
    about whatever
  • 9:19
    Dagwood and so I listen to the customers
  • 9:22
    and completely retooled the strip to
  • 9:24
    make it a workplace trip so that the
  • 9:27
    reason that Dilbert succeeded and it's
  • 9:29
    very rare that a big comic will break
  • 9:31
    out is that I applied business
  • 9:35
    techniques to the artistic realm could
  • 9:38
    somebody else do a cartoon and have a
  • 9:40
    breakout nowadays in this market where
  • 9:42
    the syndication is different maybe you'd
  • 9:45
    like one of the last actually succeeded
  • 9:48
    before the door was closed well you know
  • 9:50
    there's only one giant cartoon every ten
  • 9:53
    years or so you know that's it's
  • 9:55
    actually very rare you know there's you
  • 9:57
    can count on one hand the mega cartoons
  • 10:00
    and if somebody were to start down today
  • 10:03
    I'd probably tell them to start on the
  • 10:05
    internet and see if they can get an
  • 10:07
    audience and then if they can try to
  • 10:09
    also get syndicated because for those
  • 10:12
    who don't know us syndication is you
  • 10:14
    sign a deal with a company that's a
  • 10:16
    syndication company and then you they
  • 10:21
    sell it to all the newspapers so you
  • 10:23
    don't have to do all the selling to the
  • 10:24
    individual newspapers so yeah I would
  • 10:26
    start with the internet first see if you
  • 10:28
    can get an audience refine your art and
  • 10:30
    then try to get syndicated next so it is
  • 10:34
    possible you think totally possible but
  • 10:36
    you know the market is shrinking in
  • 10:39
    terms of the physical newspapers
  • 10:41
    yeah but Dilbert's bigger than it's ever
  • 10:43
    been because as long as there's one big
  • 10:45
    newspaper in every market you know it
  • 10:48
    runs in that paper and of course the
  • 10:50
    internet market is growing every day so
  • 10:52
    so it's growing there no matter what
  • 10:54
    where'd you get your drawing skills my
  • 10:59
    mother you get your drawing skills my
  • 11:00
    was a landscape artist and my father
  • 11:04
    doodled little cartoons that were more
  • 11:06
    like stick figures but very funny and
  • 11:08
    their own little weird way so I think I
  • 11:10
    had you know a little bit of genetic
  • 11:12
    advantage there but anybody who's seen
  • 11:16
    Dilbert knows I'm not an artist with any
  • 11:18
    kind of a capital A so it was really
  • 11:21
    brute force and the the first original
  • 11:23
    comics that I submitted if you saw them
  • 11:26
    you'd say there's no way this guy is
  • 11:28
    gonna get hired or syndicated this is
  • 11:31
    looks like an inebriated monkey with a
  • 11:34
    crayon what's what's going on here but
  • 11:37
    it was just brute force I just practiced
  • 11:39
    and until I could do it
  • 11:40
    ooh what do you what kind of sense of
  • 11:43
    humor do you think you have well
  • 11:46
    probably it's a combination of
  • 11:48
    observational plus engineering in other
  • 11:52
    words to make something a look clever
  • 11:55
    you sometimes you have to look at it as
  • 11:58
    an engineer as in what would be the
  • 12:00
    weird way to accomplish this in the in
  • 12:03
    the cartoon realm if you've got a
  • 12:05
    character who's got a problem and it's a
  • 12:07
    cartoon so they they can kind of do
  • 12:09
    anything there's no real limits what is
  • 12:11
    the funny engineering solution and it
  • 12:13
    might involve you know killing somebody
  • 12:15
    it might involve you know aliens who
  • 12:18
    could involve anything so but you have
  • 12:20
    to start as you said earlier was
  • 12:23
    something that everybody goes oh that's
  • 12:24
    like I've been there if you don't get
  • 12:27
    that part right it's hard to get much
  • 12:29
    else right people have to recognize and
  • 12:31
    identify with the situation then you can
  • 12:34
    extend it but you got it you got to get
  • 12:36
    them first I have a theory that your
  • 12:38
    humor is absurdist this explain
  • 12:43
    absurdist and you spot the absurdities
  • 12:47
    in the art and the office environment
  • 12:50
    for example and most everything every
  • 12:52
    punch line you deliver is based on
  • 12:55
    something that's just it's it's beyond
  • 12:57
    the pale and so far as pure absurdity is
  • 13:00
    concerned I I'm gonna agree with that
  • 13:03
    with different words I call it a
  • 13:05
    cognitive blind spots so I'm looking for
  • 13:09
    places where otherwise more people are
  • 13:12
    doing something that the
  • 13:13
    observers would say that doesn't look
  • 13:16
    smart you know I know you went to
  • 13:18
    college you know I know you're smart why
  • 13:21
    are you doing that and that explains you
  • 13:23
    know 75% of management and and you know
  • 13:26
    the reason for that is that people are
  • 13:28
    paid to manage but sometimes there's
  • 13:30
    nothing to do or you don't know what to
  • 13:31
    do and you end up just saying well
  • 13:33
    what's the fad you know yeah I worked in
  • 13:35
    the government so I know some of that
  • 13:36
    from another perspective is still the
  • 13:38
    same you were fired from packed Pacific
  • 13:42
    telephone I'm gonna tell you this story
  • 13:44
    that I was told by one of your old
  • 13:46
    associates all right you remember her
  • 13:48
    Nina yes yeah neither who was the the
  • 13:52
    real-life model for my character Alice
  • 13:55
    in the comic strip yes some boneheads
  • 13:58
    came into the company on some normal
  • 14:00
    kind of a well let's put this guy in
  • 14:02
    because he can he's gonna reorg this and
  • 14:04
    he's gonna do that it's gonna straighten
  • 14:05
    things out and he was naive and he said
  • 14:10
    I guess he went through one I've seen
  • 14:12
    this happen a different operation
  • 14:13
    somebody goes in there they start doing
  • 14:15
    a checklist what does this guy do
  • 14:16
    who's this who is this guy Scott Adams
  • 14:19
    what does he do and nobody was there and
  • 14:22
    I've seen this happen recently to other
  • 14:23
    in other companies where somebody's
  • 14:25
    actually very important to a company you
  • 14:28
    were at the time important the way it
  • 14:29
    was told to me to the salespeople
  • 14:31
    because the comic strip was popular
  • 14:33
    enough that they would drag you out on
  • 14:35
    sales calls as a lure which happens with
  • 14:39
    any company that's got any brains right
  • 14:41
    bring a lure in and oh you get to meet
  • 14:44
    Scott Adams and by the way you can buy
  • 14:46
    some of these some of the gear or some
  • 14:48
    services and this bonehead came in and
  • 14:51
    he just unceremoniously got rid of you
  • 14:54
    and some sort of a cleanup very much
  • 14:56
    like you see in that movie the office
  • 14:58
    and you didn't make a fuss or object or
  • 15:03
    anything you left and then they found
  • 15:05
    out about it they their upper two people
  • 15:07
    that knew better they wanted you to come
  • 15:09
    back and you said you know I don't need
  • 15:11
    to come back I'm gonna stay I'm gonna
  • 15:12
    stay gone and that was the end of it
  • 15:14
    that that's pretty close all I did a
  • 15:16
    little little context to it my
  • 15:18
    co-workers once I started getting famous
  • 15:21
    and started to get a little bit of money
  • 15:24
    with Dilbert it was obvious that I was
  • 15:26
    going to
  • 15:27
    leave and it didn't make sense to keep
  • 15:29
    my day job but they wanted me to stay
  • 15:31
    like as you as you said that was good
  • 15:33
    for sales customers would would come in
  • 15:36
    and they were Dilbert fans and so I
  • 15:37
    helped and they actually made me an
  • 15:40
    offer and they actually made me an
  • 15:41
    Anita the one that I just mentioned the
  • 15:43
    real-life Alice from the comic strip
  • 15:45
    said how about this deal I'll go to our
  • 15:48
    management and I'll say you don't even
  • 15:49
    have to show up unless you don't want to
  • 15:51
    except for these sales calls and
  • 15:53
    otherwise we'll do your work you know
  • 15:55
    we'll do the engineering stuff that was
  • 15:57
    your main work and my co-workers said
  • 16:01
    yeah we're up for that we'll do the work
  • 16:03
    you just come in for the the times you
  • 16:05
    want to basically and I said so you're
  • 16:08
    like a fellow without being without
  • 16:11
    having the designation right in the
  • 16:13
    sense and so Anita took that to the boss
  • 16:16
    you're talking about and made that deal
  • 16:17
    and he said I'm okay with that and he
  • 16:20
    checked with me and I said yeah that's
  • 16:21
    I'm okay with the two but here's the
  • 16:23
    thing I don't want to be a burden so the
  • 16:26
    day that you need that budget you're
  • 16:28
    paying me for something else you just
  • 16:30
    have to ask and I'll leave the same day
  • 16:33
    and one day he was he had some other
  • 16:36
    project that he thought was more
  • 16:38
    important and he called me in and said
  • 16:39
    you know this would be a good day and I
  • 16:43
    said okay that's the deal you just have
  • 16:45
    to ask I don't I don't need a reason you
  • 16:48
    just have to ask
  • 16:49
    and so I I left peacefully and yes I did
  • 16:52
    get a call from I believe it was the CEO
  • 16:54
    CEO were president I think it was a CEO
  • 16:57
    at the time who was surprised to find
  • 16:59
    out that I had been asked to leave ah
  • 17:01
    well it's your version is obviously more
  • 17:04
    accurate than mine but mine's still good
  • 17:06
    here's a good yeah you were 90% there
  • 17:09
    yeah i when it happened I since I knew
  • 17:15
    at the time I thought well this is gonna
  • 17:17
    be interesting because it's because how
  • 17:18
    is he gonna because I thought that
  • 17:19
    cartoon was derivative from the work
  • 17:22
    experience and you're getting daily
  • 17:23
    material just by going to work showing
  • 17:26
    up and I was wondering how you were
  • 17:28
    gonna handle that and you've handled it
  • 17:31
    quite nicely I don't see any difference
  • 17:33
    actually well I was getting literally
  • 17:36
    thousands of emails a day in the
  • 17:38
    beginning with
  • 17:39
    suggestions and it was a huge burden to
  • 17:44
    respond to I tried to respond to all of
  • 17:45
    them back in those days and there was
  • 17:48
    just material coming in and it would
  • 17:50
    always remind me of something I had
  • 17:52
    experienced so I was always looking for
  • 17:54
    that if somebody suggested something I'd
  • 17:56
    never heard of that usually didn't work
  • 17:59
    for me but if I said oh yeah that
  • 18:01
    happened to me then it was a cartoon
  • 18:04
    where I don't see a lot of stuff from
  • 18:06
    you is a convention life you know I
  • 18:11
    there's there's a cartooning reason you
  • 18:14
    don't see Dilbert go to conventions a
  • 18:16
    lot and the reason is I don't like
  • 18:18
    drawing backgrounds okay to draw the
  • 18:21
    convention stuff in the back you either
  • 18:23
    have to be I don't want to interrupt you
  • 18:26
    but since you're now doing everything on
  • 18:27
    the computer can you have like a stock
  • 18:29
    couple of backgrounds you just drop in
  • 18:31
    so you don't have to do it now that any
  • 18:33
    of that work well people would notice
  • 18:36
    the stock backgrounds I do do a stock
  • 18:38
    exterior building that I reuse but yeah
  • 18:42
    I'd have to draw it in the first place
  • 18:43
    and I'd have to change it every time you
  • 18:46
    know but you're right it's a lot easier
  • 18:49
    now with the computer when did you
  • 18:51
    switch I switched let's see if I could
  • 18:56
    remember the year it was probably in
  • 18:59
    that 2004 ish range give or take II hear
  • 19:03
    and it was because I had a problem with
  • 19:06
    my drawing hand I had spasms in my pinky
  • 19:09
    when I tried to draw from overuse it's a
  • 19:13
    weird thing called a focal dystonia and
  • 19:16
    went to the doctor and said what's this
  • 19:19
    what's going on with my pinky I can't
  • 19:21
    draw anymore and by pure luck the world
  • 19:25
    expert literally the world expert on
  • 19:29
    this specific condition lived in my town
  • 19:32
    and was in my my HMO at Kaiser and you
  • 19:37
    know my doctor knew him and and and next
  • 19:39
    thing I know I'm talking to the world
  • 19:40
    expert on this problem and I said what's
  • 19:43
    the cure and he said we don't have one
  • 19:45
    you know basically changed jobs so I
  • 19:49
    agreed to be part of
  • 19:51
    you know the test group they were trying
  • 19:55
    different things to see if they could
  • 19:56
    make some progress but in the meantime I
  • 19:59
    thought well I'm done unless I can
  • 20:00
    figure out a solution for drawing and so
  • 20:03
    I drew left-handed for a while which I
  • 20:05
    can do but it's slower I'm slightly
  • 20:08
    ambidextrous but not terribly in a bit
  • 20:10
    dexterous and then I thought you know
  • 20:13
    I'll bet there's by now something you
  • 20:15
    can draw on the computer that maybe my
  • 20:18
    hand would act differently yeah cuz the
  • 20:20
    the weird thing about this hand problem
  • 20:22
    is that it was actually a mental problem
  • 20:24
    that expressed itself in the hand so the
  • 20:26
    hand was fine and the reason I knew that
  • 20:29
    is when I drew with my left hand my
  • 20:31
    right hand would spasm because my brain
  • 20:34
    would say hey you're drawing again spasm
  • 20:36
    spasm spasm and the you know the expert
  • 20:39
    I mentioned confirmed that it's more of
  • 20:41
    a brain problem than a hand problem and
  • 20:44
    so when I drew on the computer even
  • 20:46
    though the drawing looks just like
  • 20:48
    drawing it's just you're drawing on a
  • 20:50
    screen and you're using a stylus the my
  • 20:53
    brain did not recognize it as drawing
  • 20:55
    for whatever reason it just didn't
  • 20:58
    trigger that very specific response and
  • 21:01
    then over time I learned through the
  • 21:03
    hand exercises and gradually building up
  • 21:06
    to using my hand with a regular pencil
  • 21:08
    just very very quick tests you know hold
  • 21:12
    the pencil down for a quarter of a
  • 21:14
    second and release it before the spasm
  • 21:16
    until I could do a second than two
  • 21:18
    seconds and I did that for months until
  • 21:21
    I believe I'm the first person who's
  • 21:23
    ever remediated or solved that problem
  • 21:28
    focal dystonia I think I'm in the
  • 21:30
    literature my doctor told me oh well
  • 21:33
    that's good and bad I guess yeah it did
  • 21:35
    move you over to the computer which
  • 21:37
    probably eventually sped up you what
  • 21:39
    work talk about you know lemonade out of
  • 21:41
    lemons it probably cut my work load by
  • 21:44
    at least over fifty percent yeah
  • 21:47
    and that's been just a huge advantage in
  • 21:50
    my life as you can imagine yeah well
  • 21:51
    most artists I know personally have all
  • 21:54
    they all switch or the confused one way
  • 21:56
    or another except for one I know that's
  • 21:58
    always been a computer artist but
  • 22:01
    they've always benefited from the
  • 22:03
    there's a
  • 22:04
    the two-edged sword they benefited from
  • 22:07
    the productivity because you know
  • 22:11
    especially graphics guys couldn't change
  • 22:13
    the backgrounds you really quickly they
  • 22:15
    don't that we do everything but then
  • 22:17
    there became so much computer-generated
  • 22:19
    stuff that came out to compete with them
  • 22:21
    they're all singing the blues and men
  • 22:23
    even had to quit then that it was weird
  • 22:26
    to watch the Deaf UNAM anon do you have
  • 22:30
    Tourette's I do not why do you ask
  • 22:34
    because you have elements of it almost
  • 22:36
    identical to Adam Curry who who talks
  • 22:38
    about his Tourette's constantly we
  • 22:39
    talked about on our show quite a bit
  • 22:41
    maybe I do what what are the symptoms I
  • 22:43
    thought I should be swearing out loud
  • 22:44
    for no no no that nobody had yeah I
  • 22:46
    think in my whole life I've run into one
  • 22:48
    person that has that form of Tourette's
  • 22:51
    really and he was on an airplane being
  • 22:53
    dragged off it was terrible I felt bad
  • 22:55
    for the guy
  • 22:55
    well you dragged me off an airplane not
  • 22:57
    give you some of that guy no he was
  • 22:58
    cussing before they drugged him off but
  • 23:00
    it's mostly twitches oh I have lots of
  • 23:04
    twitches yeah that's Tourette's well
  • 23:06
    it's nice to know I got that too well I
  • 23:08
    don't want it yeah well you've got all
  • 23:10
    these ailments I hate to bring it up but
  • 23:12
    the reason I say that is because there's
  • 23:14
    a commonality with all Tourette's even
  • 23:16
    the most minor of Tourette's sufferers
  • 23:18
    and I know people that have you know
  • 23:20
    they they have all kinds of twitches
  • 23:22
    Adam fights it because he has to used to
  • 23:25
    TV a lot so he had to when he was at MTV
  • 23:27
    he had to fight it but everyone who's
  • 23:31
    ever had even a little bit of Tourette's
  • 23:33
    neat-freak really I can't say I'm a knee
  • 23:38
    freak that says Adam says the same thing
  • 23:41
    but he is yeah I would soar you I'm here
  • 23:43
    at your house that's where we're doing
  • 23:45
    this you saw me picking up stuff off the
  • 23:47
    floor when we got here yeah true stories
  • 23:51
    I wanted to bring it back the Braga's
  • 23:53
    met you just mentioned him you know you
  • 23:54
    might want to look into it you did have
  • 23:56
    some ailment that was disconcerning
  • 23:58
    though where you couldn't talk for a
  • 23:59
    month or something like that yeah so the
  • 24:01
    voice problem was also a spasm of the
  • 24:03
    vocal cords and I lost my voice for
  • 24:05
    three and a half years I couldn't speak
  • 24:07
    oh it was three it was it was that long
  • 24:09
    yeah for three and a half years I
  • 24:11
    couldn't have a conversation or be
  • 24:13
    understood on the telephone or give a
  • 24:15
    speech or anything
  • 24:16
    and it turns out the focal dystonia and
  • 24:18
    the voice problem are actually related
  • 24:21
    because they're both brain problems
  • 24:23
    they're not they're not the hand and
  • 24:24
    they're not the vocal cords they're just
  • 24:26
    that's just where the spasm is and but
  • 24:29
    it's well known that they travel in
  • 24:30
    pairs so if you have one of those
  • 24:32
    problems it's not unusual that you might
  • 24:34
    have a second one in some other place on
  • 24:36
    your body but Tourette's never came up
  • 24:38
    so maybe you don't have Tourette's but
  • 24:41
    if I just saw you on the street didn't
  • 24:43
    know who you were now I think I do so
  • 24:45
    thanks for that so what happened and
  • 24:48
    that this I just don't want to get in no
  • 24:49
    way all that whole up now if I do I have
  • 24:53
    an excuse to swear up people for no
  • 24:54
    reason Adam does that too but he neither
  • 24:57
    you or him have that form of Tourette's
  • 24:59
    that is according to you that's a that's
  • 25:02
    a very specific until I start doing it
  • 25:05
    and then I've got it get I don't want to
  • 25:07
    do all in this but did three years yeah
  • 25:10
    three and a half years I could make
  • 25:12
    noise but we couldn't understand that
  • 25:13
    what what happened what when did was the
  • 25:16
    breakthrough what was that like when you
  • 25:17
    came out of it well the the quick
  • 25:20
    version a lot of people have heard this
  • 25:22
    story so let me give me the fast version
  • 25:24
    so it took a long time to figure out
  • 25:26
    what it was because regular general
  • 25:28
    practitioners have never seen it you
  • 25:30
    know it's very rare it's called a
  • 25:32
    spasmodic dysphonia and how do you
  • 25:35
    explain it to anybody
  • 25:36
    well so I'm trying to tell people that
  • 25:40
    I've got this problem and they hear it
  • 25:42
    the first things that people think are
  • 25:44
    that you have a mental problem because
  • 25:46
    if one of the odd characteristics is
  • 25:49
    that you can talk okay when you're alone
  • 25:50
    oh wow
  • 25:53
    so if you imagine that imagine telling
  • 25:56
    your doctor or can talk fine as long as
  • 25:58
    nobody's listening but if people are
  • 26:00
    listening it's like this now that's a
  • 26:03
    bad impression of me trying to talk so
  • 26:06
    obviously they're gonna say ok mental
  • 26:08
    you're you're getting too worked up
  • 26:10
    because of people or something like that
  • 26:12
    but I was sure that wasn't it because I
  • 26:14
    didn't feel like that right I didn't
  • 26:16
    feel any different talking to people and
  • 26:18
    so I rejected you know valium and I I
  • 26:22
    tried some Botox shots there was a
  • 26:24
    treatment where they give you a Botox
  • 26:26
    shot through the front of your neck
  • 26:28
    this needle that you don't even want to
  • 26:31
    hear about it it's an ugly process and
  • 26:33
    you have to do it every month or so but
  • 26:35
    that didn't work too well for me and so
  • 26:37
    I said a Google Alert for the spasmodic
  • 26:42
    dysphonia once I'd figured out it was
  • 26:44
    what it was which I figured out also
  • 26:45
    from Google because I had the hand
  • 26:48
    problem so I I said oh the hand problem
  • 26:50
    is called a focal dystonia I wonder if
  • 26:54
    there's something called a voice
  • 26:56
    dystonia so I put in that search that
  • 27:00
    search keywords and it popped up with
  • 27:04
    spasmodic dysphonia because that was
  • 27:06
    close enough so Google actually
  • 27:09
    diagnosed me and showed me a video of
  • 27:11
    somebody who had exactly the same
  • 27:13
    problem so now I had a name for it
  • 27:15
    so I took that name put it into a Google
  • 27:17
    Alert while I was talking to doctors one
  • 27:19
    after another getting my head scanned
  • 27:22
    and all kinds of things and finding you
  • 27:23
    know no nothing nothing and one day I
  • 27:26
    get an alert that says there's some
  • 27:28
    doctor in Japan who's got a surgery to
  • 27:30
    fix it I tracked down the top doctors
  • 27:33
    you know I was a stanford at first they
  • 27:36
    said hey is this real he said I don't
  • 27:38
    know if that's real but we get some
  • 27:40
    exaggerated complaint or exaggerated
  • 27:43
    claims from that particular doctor maybe
  • 27:46
    you should talk to this other guy at USC
  • 27:48
    he's doing something I talked to him dr.
  • 27:50
    Gerald Burke and he was doing an exam
  • 27:53
    what new / experimental surgery in which
  • 27:56
    they would rewire some of the nerves in
  • 27:59
    your neck they split they cut them so
  • 28:02
    therefore I know two months or something
  • 28:04
    you can't speak because your brain is no
  • 28:07
    longer connected to your vocal cords
  • 28:09
    it's the weirdest thing you can't you
  • 28:11
    can try but just nothing happens and
  • 28:13
    then the Rees placed root kicks in after
  • 28:18
    about eight weeks I might have the weeks
  • 28:19
    wrong but something like that and then
  • 28:21
    you can talk or it doesn't work those
  • 28:24
    the - oh great
  • 28:25
    right it's either gonna work or just
  • 28:27
    doesn't work and then there wasn't there
  • 28:30
    was a moment almost exactly on the day
  • 28:33
    that they predicted that the nerves
  • 28:35
    could grow back together because they
  • 28:36
    they know what rate they grow at that I
  • 28:39
    could talk very weakly and
  • 28:42
    did you have the cutting done yes I had
  • 28:45
    the surgery and took a couple weeks to
  • 28:49
    recover from the surgery and then I
  • 28:51
    could talk just faintly and just for a
  • 28:53
    little while before being sort of
  • 28:55
    exhausted by it and then it took a few
  • 28:59
    years to get you know full fluency back
  • 29:01
    because you also lose fluency if you
  • 29:04
    don't speak for three and a half years
  • 29:07
    you actually can't form sentences you
  • 29:10
    know all the words but you can't do it
  • 29:13
    effortlessly so talking is actually
  • 29:15
    difficult for years and only I would say
  • 29:18
    in the last two or three years maybe I
  • 29:21
    feel like I'm back to top fluency yeah I
  • 29:26
    wouldn't know the difference I mean from
  • 29:30
    you 20 years ago or 93 which is I guess
  • 29:34
    2025 years ago you sound the same well
  • 29:39
    that's a that's an ordeal we will won't
  • 29:43
    continue do you exercise
  • 29:45
    I do yeah I'm quite committed to
  • 29:49
    exercise I'm a lifelong exerciser and I
  • 29:52
    try to do it five times a week and be
  • 29:55
    active on the other two days when did
  • 29:58
    you become a Republican I am NOT a
  • 30:00
    Republican I'm not either
  • 30:02
    so never I guess I am a I've went from
  • 30:05
    Democrat to Republican with Reagan to
  • 30:10
    independent and then there I didn't
  • 30:12
    realize a better one than that which is
  • 30:14
    unaffiliated which is what I am now when
  • 30:16
    I was a young man I thought I know
  • 30:19
    enough about politics I'm gonna register
  • 30:20
    and I'm gonna vote and I cast my vote
  • 30:23
    proudly for Jimmy Carter and a few Lee a
  • 30:26
    few years later I said to myself I
  • 30:28
    shouldn't be voting what I'm not adding
  • 30:31
    to this I'm not adding to the
  • 30:33
    intelligence of the vote you know I like
  • 30:35
    that I can vote I'm glad to other people
  • 30:37
    do it but I'm not adding anything to the
  • 30:40
    intelligence of the outcome and I don't
  • 30:42
    think that's changed but I like the
  • 30:44
    topic of politics I'm sorry I voted one
  • 30:47
    Carter - I wasn't McGovern supporter if
  • 30:52
    you didn't believe in that yeah so I'm I
  • 30:55
    vote and I am not a member of a party oh
  • 30:58
    you don't vote at all but you you do
  • 31:01
    like to give your opinions and you seem
  • 31:04
    to be a I don't know if your if you
  • 31:06
    would want to take this as the as a
  • 31:09
    descriptor a Trump apologist I hate that
  • 31:14
    phrase a Trump apologist I hate that
  • 31:15
    yeah well I'm called one too and I'm not
  • 31:17
    I don't consider myself to be one yeah
  • 31:19
    the the the reason I hated it is like it
  • 31:21
    assumes that you would support him no
  • 31:23
    matter what he did and that you're just
  • 31:26
    sort of always always on the team in my
  • 31:28
    case most of my writing and talking
  • 31:31
    about President Trump started during the
  • 31:34
    campaign and mostly I talked about his
  • 31:36
    persuasion skills because that's another
  • 31:38
    area that I have a lot of experience I'm
  • 31:41
    an I'm a trained hypnotist when did that
  • 31:43
    happen would you become a trained
  • 31:44
    hypnotist my early twenties I thought
  • 31:47
    hey is this some kind of superpower that
  • 31:49
    I could just learn and so I learned it I
  • 31:53
    was influenced by my mother who had been
  • 31:56
    hypnotized by her family doctor in my
  • 31:59
    small town and my mother gave birth to
  • 32:01
    my little sister and reports that she
  • 32:04
    was awake and took no painkillers and
  • 32:07
    didn't feel pain mmm
  • 32:09
    now that's unusual you can't most people
  • 32:11
    would not have that experience but about
  • 32:12
    two and 5-wood or one in five and it
  • 32:16
    made me think what is this thing you
  • 32:18
    know what is this power that you could
  • 32:20
    you can do that kind of thing and so I
  • 32:23
    learned it and sure enough it is a
  • 32:25
    superpower like nothing I've ever seen
  • 32:27
    it changes your entire worldview and
  • 32:29
    that's the biggest change it changes how
  • 32:31
    you perceive the world and and you stop
  • 32:35
    perceiving people as rational once you
  • 32:38
    can reprogram them so easily you realize
  • 32:40
    that they're they're rational minds are
  • 32:42
    not really running the show and that's
  • 32:44
    just an illusion so you've gotten
  • 32:47
    philosophical about it yeah I guess it's
  • 32:50
    philosophical in the sense that my
  • 32:52
    worldview changed by how easily I could
  • 32:55
    reprogram other people using a set of
  • 32:58
    tools that are pretty well understood
  • 32:59
    and that I've been studying persuasion
  • 33:02
    in all of its forms from you know
  • 33:04
    selling to marketing to design even
  • 33:06
    anywhere I can find that
  • 33:08
    on it for 30 years probably as part of
  • 33:11
    writing as part of creating the comic
  • 33:13
    it's it's an important element so you
  • 33:17
    saw Trump as some sort of do you think
  • 33:19
    he is a genius or a savant what I saw is
  • 33:24
    that he used the tools of persuasion
  • 33:27
    more effectively than I've ever seen it
  • 33:30
    done now part of the reason he's so
  • 33:32
    effective is that he seems immune to
  • 33:35
    shame he's he's willing to say or do
  • 33:40
    anything and generally I believe that
  • 33:44
    you know he's aiming his impulses at
  • 33:45
    least you know his public office
  • 33:47
    impulses at legitimately legitimately
  • 33:50
    making the country a better place in his
  • 33:53
    view of how that how that looks
  • 33:56
    and so his he'll cut some corners he'll
  • 34:00
    do some things people don't like he'll
  • 34:02
    ignore the facts if it's convenient but
  • 34:04
    he tends to persuade in the right
  • 34:06
    direction meaning that if you're someone
  • 34:08
    who likes the borders to be tight if you
  • 34:12
    like a strong military and you don't
  • 34:14
    have to by the way I'm not telling you
  • 34:16
    you should like those things but if you
  • 34:17
    do and lots of people do he's he's
  • 34:21
    certainly the the right person for that
  • 34:23
    you think he's trained like you are you
  • 34:25
    think it's just a part of his being a
  • 34:27
    Salesman all his life because during
  • 34:28
    sales training if you were ever a
  • 34:32
    Salesman you end up picking up a lot of
  • 34:34
    a lot of persuasion persuading personal
  • 34:38
    persuading gimmicks well keep in mind he
  • 34:43
    wrote the book or or at least he read it
  • 34:46
    the the book the art of the deal yeah
  • 34:48
    and so if your brand is negotiating
  • 34:53
    that's really persuasion and or a
  • 34:55
    special form of it so we know that he's
  • 34:58
    at least has an interest in it and that
  • 35:00
    would be enough over the years if that's
  • 35:02
    what you're if you're always dealing in
  • 35:04
    that domain you would pick up a lot of
  • 35:06
    stuff because the thing with persuasion
  • 35:07
    is it's not hard to learn you just have
  • 35:10
    to be paying attention to it and
  • 35:12
    absorbing it where you can but he also
  • 35:14
    had this is a weird little tidbit his
  • 35:18
    pastor when he was a kid his family
  • 35:21
    pastor for the church
  • 35:22
    they went to was norman vincent peale
  • 35:25
    funny I remember that vaguely yes yeah
  • 35:28
    and norman vincent peale was one of the
  • 35:30
    most famous american authors and he
  • 35:33
    wrote the power of positive thinking
  • 35:34
    right and probably is the person most
  • 35:37
    responsible for popularizing the idea
  • 35:40
    that the way you're thinking about your
  • 35:42
    situation can have a huge influence on
  • 35:46
    your success so if you think right
  • 35:48
    you're gonna get better results than if
  • 35:50
    you're thinking wrong and you we just
  • 35:53
    watched Trump think his way into the
  • 35:56
    presidency in the sense I mean the the
  • 35:59
    optimism the positive thinking the the
  • 36:03
    inability to be swayed by any problem is
  • 36:05
    seemed like he was just completely
  • 36:07
    unaffected at least in public by you
  • 36:10
    know things that would have killed most
  • 36:11
    people yeah and so there's that
  • 36:14
    influence but you when you see the
  • 36:17
    technique you see how often he uses
  • 36:19
    visual imagery you see how often when
  • 36:22
    it's available he'll use fear persuasion
  • 36:25
    you know the the terrorists are coming
  • 36:27
    to get you the you know there's crime
  • 36:29
    criminal coming across the border etc
  • 36:32
    and you see him talking past the sale
  • 36:36
    which is one of his most common tricks
  • 36:39
    so if you're talking about how the the
  • 36:43
    wall will be built and how it will be
  • 36:45
    funded and those things you're already
  • 36:47
    talking past the decision of is it going
  • 36:50
    to be a wall so he does this a lot of
  • 36:53
    topics he'll make you engage on the
  • 36:55
    details of the thing before you've
  • 36:57
    decided there will be a thing and that's
  • 36:59
    a classic persuasion technique and you
  • 37:02
    don't see other people doing it as
  • 37:04
    consistently as he does you don't see
  • 37:06
    them use visual stuff you don't see him
  • 37:09
    pick emotional topics he knows where the
  • 37:12
    emotion is and he can read a crowd like
  • 37:14
    like nobody his presentations are I
  • 37:18
    don't know how many of the speeches
  • 37:19
    you've watched a few yeah I probably
  • 37:21
    watched three complete from the early
  • 37:25
    ones which we couldn't carry an hour he
  • 37:27
    could do about thirty five minutes of
  • 37:29
    material and then he would start to
  • 37:30
    repeat himself then he got when he got
  • 37:32
    to the hour he was
  • 37:34
    role in his speeches I think are
  • 37:37
    phenomenal they really controls the
  • 37:39
    audience and he gets a lot of people in
  • 37:40
    the guys you know you were a public
  • 37:42
    speaker the bigger audience is the
  • 37:44
    better audience yeah
  • 37:45
    the small audience is hard you can't
  • 37:47
    meet the six people right they're not
  • 37:49
    gonna laugh they're not gonna do
  • 37:50
    anything but you've got ten thousand
  • 37:53
    people or twenty or thirty in his case
  • 37:55
    you have you you can have a lot of fun
  • 37:58
    yeah I think history will record that
  • 38:01
    you know he's not everybody's cup of tea
  • 38:03
    so he's sort of a love him or hate him
  • 38:05
    thing but in terms of his public
  • 38:07
    speaking best ever
  • 38:10
    uh well it depends on your definition of
  • 38:14
    best ever
  • 38:15
    well best everything most effective yes
  • 38:18
    being able to hold the crowd and
  • 38:20
    entertain them make them want to come
  • 38:21
    back make them talk about it make them
  • 38:23
    maybe people make people focus on the
  • 38:26
    topics he wants you to focus on to
  • 38:27
    control the headlines for a week it's
  • 38:31
    all there he's got some I only read this
  • 38:33
    once I don't know exactly but he has a
  • 38:35
    personality disorder of some sort that
  • 38:37
    makes him only knee like three to four
  • 38:41
    hours sleep a night
  • 38:42
    that's a personality disorder well
  • 38:44
    apparently it is by today's standards
  • 38:46
    and I thought you would say it's an
  • 38:49
    advantage but he's a very interesting
  • 38:52
    character I have to agree and people
  • 38:55
    have you found that because you look
  • 38:57
    like you are the truck and I'll use the
  • 38:59
    term again Trump apologist that you've
  • 39:01
    lost any business whatsoever oh sure
  • 39:04
    yeah probably forty percent of my income
  • 39:07
    evaporated and 75 percent of my social
  • 39:11
    circle yeah I'm quite an outcast and my
  • 39:14
    and I I don't do public speaking anymore
  • 39:17
    because it's too dangerous
  • 39:18
    you know I wouldn't feel comfortable if
  • 39:22
    there was any publicity and you put me
  • 39:24
    in front of a big crowd right now
  • 39:25
    because it only takes one person to say
  • 39:27
    that guy said something good about the
  • 39:29
    president's persuasion skills he must
  • 39:32
    die so I don't think it's safe to be in
  • 39:36
    public when people like you are branding
  • 39:39
    me a Trump apologist that's not me I
  • 39:43
    will say this that I ran into you when
  • 39:45
    it when I first met you did make some
  • 39:47
    assertion when I first met you did make some
  • 39:48
    you wanted to become a public speaker
  • 39:49
    because you thought that was just some
  • 39:51
    really cool goal I ran into you on the
  • 39:53
    road at the same speaking event I was a
  • 39:58
    speaker and you were a speaker to some
  • 39:59
    event this was I don't know if you
  • 40:00
    remember this but I do because you were
  • 40:02
    grousing and I'm HEA grousing yes
  • 40:05
    possible is unbelievable
  • 40:07
    and you had run into the same phenomenon
  • 40:10
    that I had run into which is part of
  • 40:12
    actually what you discuss in the cartoon
  • 40:14
    more or less which is the boneheads that
  • 40:17
    put together these events and then they
  • 40:19
    hire you to be a speaker and then you
  • 40:22
    for something you say something you do
  • 40:23
    something and you insulted the CEO
  • 40:25
    somehow vises by making some offhanded
  • 40:28
    remark good did I do that that day I
  • 40:31
    think so well apparently they've never
  • 40:33
    seen Dilbert if they hired me and didn't
  • 40:36
    expect me to insult their CEO indirectly
  • 40:39
    or directly it's I thought it was
  • 40:42
    getting to the point where you stopped
  • 40:43
    doing public speaking at that point
  • 40:45
    no I I've sort of pulled back from it a
  • 40:48
    few times for just because I was busy
  • 40:50
    with other stuff but at the moment you
  • 40:53
    know I and then I had to stop when I
  • 40:54
    lost my voice for a few years but at the
  • 40:57
    moment is just not safe yeah huh
  • 41:00
    I was wondering if that was gonna affect
  • 41:01
    you at all affected our podcast by I
  • 41:04
    think about 40 percent 30 to 40 maybe in
  • 41:08
    terms of fall-off people just don't want
  • 41:10
    to listen anymore they they're they're
  • 41:12
    too happy being kind of hypnotized by
  • 41:16
    mania can you cook
  • 41:20
    I can Bluff my way through some things
  • 41:23
    it's not my favorite thing to do would
  • 41:25
    it happen to your investments in the
  • 41:27
    restaurants well the I can't tell you
  • 41:30
    the real story because there's actually
  • 41:34
    there are a variety of legal problems
  • 41:38
    that you end up running into if you own
  • 41:41
    a restaurant and you have deep pockets
  • 41:43
    meaning that unscrupulous people will
  • 41:47
    find reasons to go after you that you've
  • 41:51
    never even heard of and I mean literally
  • 41:53
    you've never even heard of them and I'm
  • 41:57
    pretty worldly you know I've been
  • 41:59
    involved in lots of businesses
  • 42:01
    as I said I've got an MBA worked at big
  • 42:03
    companies I know a lot of stuff I've
  • 42:06
    heard of a lot of stuff but the problems
  • 42:08
    that I had legally are things I had
  • 42:11
    never heard of and and if I were and I
  • 42:14
    can't tell you because you make
  • 42:16
    settlements and you agree not to talk
  • 42:17
    about him right but I had to settle a
  • 42:20
    few and it looked like there was going
  • 42:21
    to be no end to it like literally there
  • 42:23
    would just be no end to it the
  • 42:25
    additional ones that could come and I
  • 42:28
    made a business decision to dig it down
  • 42:31
    now the first restaurant was wildly
  • 42:34
    popular we built the second one at the
  • 42:36
    peak of the market literally I signed
  • 42:38
    the lease the day that the twin towers
  • 42:40
    were coming down it was 9/11 timing yeah
  • 42:44
    timing and when that happened the
  • 42:47
    economy fell apart and the place for the
  • 42:49
    second restaurant was in a place that
  • 42:52
    big companies that agreed to move into
  • 42:54
    it was just going to be a gold mine it
  • 42:56
    was the greatest location and they all
  • 42:58
    pulled out they all pulled out because
  • 43:00
    of the economy well that was a bad era I
  • 43:03
    mean you first had the dot-com crash and
  • 43:05
    then you had the y2k fiasco and then as
  • 43:10
    if things were straightening out boom
  • 43:11
    you have the twin towers I still want
  • 43:13
    you to punch so I signed the lease at
  • 43:16
    the literal top of the the market I got
  • 43:18
    the most expensive leash you could ever
  • 43:21
    possibly get at the same time that the
  • 43:23
    economy went to its lowest point in in a
  • 43:26
    long time you became a vegan no
  • 43:29
    vegetarian I'm a pescetarian at the
  • 43:32
    moment a fish eater yeah eat a fish if I
  • 43:35
    have to I don't love it but it's good
  • 43:37
    for me have you used the vagin character
  • 43:39
    and your cartoon ever I feel like I have
  • 43:41
    I know I had a vegetarian character at
  • 43:44
    least once
  • 43:45
    based on me I don't know if I've had a
  • 43:48
    vegan don't remember opportunity I'll
  • 43:52
    work that it you did a thing you're
  • 43:57
    promoting this thing called the blight
  • 44:00
    Authority yes which is your one of your
  • 44:03
    pet projects yeah so bill pulled a is
  • 44:07
    he's the founder and primary mover of
  • 44:10
    this and blight spelled BL IG HT
  • 44:14
    just refers to it generally in this
  • 44:17
    context anyway in urban area where it's
  • 44:20
    all run down and it's just crime and
  • 44:22
    abandoned buildings and stuff and so
  • 44:25
    what bill does is he finds funding to go
  • 44:29
    in and just clear it out and just you
  • 44:31
    know bulldoze it and wreck it and bring
  • 44:33
    it down to dirt so that the crime goes
  • 44:36
    away but then there's also an
  • 44:38
    opportunity opportunity to build
  • 44:40
    something there and so where I'm helping
  • 44:42
    the most is helping him try to get the
  • 44:45
    word out that there's this opportunity
  • 44:47
    there's this land available there can be
  • 44:49
    more of it because you know there's lots
  • 44:51
    more blight that can be knocked down and
  • 44:54
    I'm helping him just publicize the the
  • 44:57
    possibilities so the website blight
  • 44:59
    Authority calm as in ideas and forum
  • 45:03
    section where people are suggesting
  • 45:04
    ideas and funding and things that could
  • 45:07
    be done with those areas and you'll see
  • 45:09
    more about that we're going to do a lot
  • 45:11
    more talking about that did you get a
  • 45:13
    degree in engineering no but I played an
  • 45:17
    engineer at Pacific Bell because they
  • 45:19
    ran out of engineers that's true story
  • 45:21
    they've literally had a hiring freeze
  • 45:23
    they needed engineers for the project I
  • 45:27
    ended up working on something called
  • 45:29
    ISDN for those people old enough to
  • 45:32
    remember that and they just had a line
  • 45:35
    yeah and my boss just said well you're
  • 45:37
    not a you're not an engineer but can you
  • 45:40
    connect computers to equipment with
  • 45:43
    cables and figuring out the software and
  • 45:45
    I was like well probably if I have help
  • 45:47
    so I worked in a technology lab the most
  • 45:51
    incompetent employee who ever worked in
  • 45:53
    in a laboratory but a lot of help so the
  • 45:57
    the smart people I worked with covered
  • 45:59
    for me were you funny at school
  • 46:01
    oh maybe only in my own opinion I did
  • 46:04
    doodles of my teachers and and my fellow
  • 46:08
    students they were of course whatever's
  • 46:12
    the obscene version of the 12 year old
  • 46:13
    doodle most of them were obscene in some
  • 46:17
    way or another were you a good student
  • 46:19
    you think did you get high grades a
  • 46:21
    species as you go to what college did
  • 46:23
    you go to I was a valedictorian oh but
  • 46:27
    you gave us
  • 46:27
    I did and that sounds more impressive
  • 46:32
    than it really is you have to understand
  • 46:34
    there were only 40 people in my
  • 46:35
    graduating class still another 40 yeah
  • 46:38
    one out of 40 and then I went to
  • 46:40
    Hartwick College for my undergraduate
  • 46:42
    degree in economics and then later when
  • 46:45
    I was working I went at night and had my
  • 46:48
    company paid for it and I got my MBA at
  • 46:50
    Berkeley I'm going to I want to get some
  • 46:53
    opinions from you I'm gonna go down a
  • 46:55
    list and name somebody and then you're
  • 46:58
    just gonna say if you have anything to
  • 46:59
    say about them people yeah all right
  • 47:02
    maybe a couple of things - can I slander
  • 47:05
    them yeah of course it's fine good so
  • 47:07
    podcast and whoa yeah why wouldn't I
  • 47:11
    pence fence and ideal vice-president you
  • 47:17
    know I've said my book when Bigley I
  • 47:20
    talked about how pence was an inspired
  • 47:23
    choice because you want a vice president
  • 47:25
    that is solid you know he's got the
  • 47:28
    resume so he looks like he could take
  • 47:30
    over if you need it but he's the boring
  • 47:32
    version of the number one you know
  • 47:35
    candidate and if you stand pence next to
  • 47:38
    Trump Trump is like the you know the
  • 47:40
    full color of multimedia circus and
  • 47:44
    pence is like whatever you have left
  • 47:47
    after you take all the interesting
  • 47:48
    things away from Trump you know if you
  • 47:50
    started with Trump and subtracted
  • 47:52
    everything that makes him interesting
  • 47:53
    you'd have pence yeah so he's a perfect
  • 47:57
    choice as the Emergencies spare the
  • 48:00
    backup you think he could win if you ran
  • 48:02
    for president and Trump wasn't running
  • 48:04
    no no I don't but as a he just he
  • 48:07
    doesn't have the personality for it but
  • 48:09
    because if you look at what trauma had
  • 48:12
    to do to break through the field I mean
  • 48:15
    it was his outrageousness he is his
  • 48:18
    willingness to take positions that were
  • 48:20
    further than other people were talking
  • 48:22
    about those are all the things that
  • 48:24
    helped him you know well it also helped
  • 48:26
    him get about a 1 to 2 billion dollars
  • 48:30
    worth of media attention
  • 48:31
    yeah which they're still worked about
  • 48:34
    but they keep continuing this process of
  • 48:37
    giving him media attention he found he
  • 48:40
    found the weakness in the model which is
  • 48:42
    if it's interesting they can't not cover
  • 48:45
    it yeah so you just make sure he's the
  • 48:46
    most interesting story I think they
  • 48:49
    could have covered Bernie more I mean
  • 48:51
    they because he was kinda interesting ok
  • 48:54
    another name Kellyanne Conway well I
  • 48:57
    don't I don't know her by the way I
  • 49:00
    didn't meet the president he did invite
  • 49:02
    me oh yes you did they did invite me
  • 49:04
    into the Oval Office few weeks ago and
  • 49:07
    what was the point of that way he was he
  • 49:09
    you know he actually didn't say except I
  • 49:13
    guess my book when Bigley was popular
  • 49:16
    among people at the White House and I
  • 49:19
    think it was just August and Congress
  • 49:21
    was in recess and he was just sort of
  • 49:23
    working supporters you know it was just
  • 49:25
    solidifying his base if he will
  • 49:27
    especially the people who talked about
  • 49:29
    him write about him and but I don't know
  • 49:33
    Kellyanne Kellyanne Kellyanne Conway
  • 49:35
    except what I watch on television but I
  • 49:38
    did feel I remember when Hillary lost
  • 49:41
    and people were so sad that you know hey
  • 49:44
    we could have had a woman president and
  • 49:46
    I was thinking well what about you know
  • 49:49
    Kelly I'm didn't run for president but
  • 49:50
    she just you know helped the president
  • 49:52
    get elected like why are we ignoring
  • 49:53
    that so in terms of her skill level very
  • 49:57
    high and she's she's stuck it out with
  • 49:59
    the president so loyalty level looks
  • 50:02
    very high so I only know what I see on
  • 50:04
    TV but I like what I see back to the
  • 50:08
    president meeting do you think he read
  • 50:10
    your book Bigley did he was any because
  • 50:13
    usually people that they read your book
  • 50:14
    to have some reference them they'll make
  • 50:16
    he was familiar with the content enough
  • 50:19
    that that we could you know that I knew
  • 50:22
    that he knew what I was writing about
  • 50:24
    that's all I know for sure did you have
  • 50:26
    fun did you get a free lunch is your
  • 50:28
    lunch we didn't have lunch uh it was it
  • 50:32
    was probably the experience I'll never
  • 50:34
    be able to top in terms of the most
  • 50:37
    interesting matchbooks home they had
  • 50:39
    these match books you can take home oh
  • 50:40
    yeah I was just loading my pockets with
  • 50:42
    everything there wasn't no I didn't take
  • 50:44
    anything there wasn't no I didn't take
  • 50:44
    I didn't record it on my secret phone in
  • 50:48
    my pocket or anything actually I didn't
  • 50:51
    have a phone with me and they take your
  • 50:54
    phone away you know if you're a visitor
  • 50:56
    you don't get to bring the phone into
  • 50:57
    the yeah I don't want anything you
  • 50:59
    record competing with with the CIA's
  • 51:01
    recording for all the bugs in the rent
  • 51:02
    right so yeah it was just the most
  • 51:06
    interesting thing I have ever done he's
  • 51:09
    very engaging very charismatic and just
  • 51:13
    talking to him for a few minutes was
  • 51:14
    like a life life experience huh well it
  • 51:17
    sounds like fun
  • 51:19
    what do you think as another one another
  • 51:20
    name Rachel Maddow Rachel Maddow is
  • 51:26
    insanely smart and talented and really
  • 51:30
    good at what she does now if you don't
  • 51:33
    like that political bent then you know
  • 51:36
    you wonder you know off the air and her
  • 51:39
    critics will howl so I don't agree with
  • 51:42
    her politics or a point of view and a
  • 51:44
    lot of things but you can't deny the
  • 51:46
    talent the talent is extraordinary yeah
  • 51:50
    she was she's done to most with anyone
  • 51:54
    over there once that Olbermann left
  • 51:57
    what about MSNBC in general they they
  • 52:03
    seemed to me like the the version of CNN
  • 52:06
    that went too far like like whenever you
  • 52:09
    see something on CNN that seems like
  • 52:11
    well they're there they're taking that
  • 52:13
    opinion a little too far or well you
  • 52:15
    know that feels a little biased and then
  • 52:17
    you turn on MSNBC and you go oh what is
  • 52:21
    this what fresh hell is this so they
  • 52:26
    just seem like the exaggerated version
  • 52:28
    of CNN Jerry Brown
  • 52:31
    I really don't follow local or
  • 52:34
    California politics
  • 52:37
    he's been the governor most of your life
  • 52:39
    yeah and I haven't followed it at all
  • 52:41
    too bad so I guess I have yeah I can't
  • 52:45
    form a coherent opinion of him here's a
  • 52:48
    generality what do you think of Silicon
  • 52:50
    Valley billionaires well one of the
  • 52:54
    weird aspects of my job and I think you
  • 52:58
    is aspects of my job and I think you
  • 52:58
    say the same as you end up meeting a lot
  • 53:00
    of billionaires yeah I was thinking the
  • 53:03
    other day how many billionaires do I
  • 53:05
    know personally it was like 20
  • 53:07
    billionaires well you know if I wanted
  • 53:09
    to I could you know get a hold of them
  • 53:11
    with an email and it's hard to meet a
  • 53:15
    billionaire who isn't interesting that
  • 53:18
    that's that's the first thing and I
  • 53:19
    don't know if it's because I'm aware of
  • 53:21
    they're billionaires or that or whatever
  • 53:23
    made them a billionaire is what also
  • 53:26
    makes them interesting but you you talk
  • 53:29
    personally and privately to a
  • 53:31
    billionaire and you walk away thinking I
  • 53:33
    think I learn something almost every
  • 53:36
    time I think you might be right I never
  • 53:38
    thought of him as being interesting
  • 53:41
    I think mode I think yeah they are
  • 53:44
    interesting most almost every one of
  • 53:45
    them most almost every one of
  • 53:46
    many of them are very focused which is
  • 53:49
    the thing that you see with a couple of
  • 53:50
    these guys I mean Bill Gates for example
  • 53:52
    the most focus guy he's got supposedly a
  • 53:55
    form of autism that makes him that way
  • 53:57
    you must have the good one yes it's a
  • 54:00
    considered one I'll give you an example
  • 54:02
    Marc Benioff yeah founder of Salesforce
  • 54:05
    so I did give us before I lost my voice
  • 54:08
    I gave a talk there and I hung out for
  • 54:11
    maybe you know half an hour because we
  • 54:13
    were killing time before the event
  • 54:15
    started and I got to chat with him at
  • 54:16
    some depth privately and I'll tell you I
  • 54:19
    have never met anybody like him like
  • 54:24
    he's just not like other people and I'm
  • 54:26
    gonna explain that I mean that in a good
  • 54:29
    way he seems to be operating on this
  • 54:32
    whole other level of he uses the word
  • 54:35
    intention and you know without getting
  • 54:39
    to whoo about it he seems to have just a
  • 54:43
    superior grasp of how it all works and
  • 54:46
    when I say how it all works I mean how
  • 54:48
    it all works he just seems to be
  • 54:50
    operating on a different level that's
  • 54:52
    what I took from that and so this the
  • 54:54
    interesting exchange
  • 54:56
    I probably shouldn't talk about it but
  • 54:58
    since it makes it him look good I will
  • 55:00
    anyway where one of his top lieutenants
  • 55:04
    was talking about a slide show he goes
  • 55:06
    hey I've got this slide show we're gonna
  • 55:07
    show he looks at it Marc Benioff and he
  • 55:09
    looks at the first page and he goes
  • 55:11
    you know put something on the first page
  • 55:13
    here about you know our philanthropic
  • 55:15
    you know that 1% thing where they they
  • 55:18
    give away one percent of their profits
  • 55:20
    and try to spend one percent of their
  • 55:22
    time on philanthropic things charitable
  • 55:24
    things he says put that in the first
  • 55:26
    page and there's lieutenant pushes back
  • 55:28
    it's like well you know I've got that
  • 55:29
    it's it's it's in the body of the thing
  • 55:31
    he goes no move it up to the first page
  • 55:34
    and then the lieutenant pushes back
  • 55:36
    again and he goes now move it to the
  • 55:38
    first page and he pushed out of it again
  • 55:40
    and he just looked at it was like first
  • 55:43
    page it was like he was so and so clear
  • 55:48
    on what mattered right and in
  • 55:51
    representing the company with that first
  • 55:53
    really mattered those kind of guys were
  • 55:56
    sure CEOs liked and there's a lot of
  • 55:58
    them and a lot of Mart billionaires they
  • 56:00
    still have these characteristics so
  • 56:01
    they're the guys who are really kind of
  • 56:03
    an meta quality control
  • 56:05
    they're the ones who you know I felt
  • 56:08
    this way when they fired John Lasseter
  • 56:10
    from Pixar who was who was the creative
  • 56:12
    genius I was fired for hugging too much
  • 56:15
    I'm it was part of the me to movement
  • 56:16
    and I think that he was the guy who was
  • 56:20
    saying no no no put it on the front page
  • 56:22
    that's the same kind of a guy and there
  • 56:25
    I think they're into all office
  • 56:27
    environments you know and when they you
  • 56:29
    lose that guy whether he's the CEO
  • 56:31
    usually they are the company just kind
  • 56:34
    of just falls apart yeah and and just to
  • 56:38
    be clear it wasn't about the quality of
  • 56:40
    the slide deck he wasn't talking about
  • 56:42
    that it was it was it was as much about
  • 56:45
    training this this lieutenant what's
  • 56:49
    important and how to how to put it
  • 56:51
    forward okay another one why do you
  • 56:55
    think the Silicon Valley billionaires
  • 56:56
    are all Democrats well they're not all
  • 57:00
    Democrats but you got your you've got
  • 57:03
    your people who are willing to tell you
  • 57:05
    about their politics and you got your
  • 57:07
    people who may be a no yeah there are
  • 57:09
    three no there don't like to talk about
  • 57:11
    anything because they know because they
  • 57:13
    know the majority are Democrats right
  • 57:16
    which still begs the question why do you
  • 57:17
    think there's so many Democrats and in a
  • 57:19
    place where there's so much wealth it
  • 57:21
    doesn't it doesn't support it's not
  • 57:24
    supposed to add up that way
  • 57:25
    yeah I don't know I think you'd have to
  • 57:28
    get inside their heads to know that I
  • 57:30
    don't know what the filtering mechanism
  • 57:33
    is that got us to that point good
  • 57:36
    question I don't know what's your
  • 57:39
    favorite TV show do you watch much TV
  • 57:41
    favorite TV show the really the only one
  • 57:44
    I record at this point is the five on
  • 57:48
    Fox News and also the Greg Gutfeld show
  • 57:52
    in part because I know Greg but the five
  • 57:55
    is probably the best the best produced
  • 57:58
    show with the best characters and the
  • 58:01
    most consistently entertaining really
  • 58:03
    because the the the model that they
  • 58:05
    built of these engaging characters sort
  • 58:09
    of teasing each other and talking about
  • 58:11
    the news is it's just the best thing on
  • 58:13
    TV huh well that's a shocker to me
  • 58:15
    didn't see that coming no I sure did not
  • 58:18
    I mean I like my game of Thrones but
  • 58:20
    they're not on now so what about books
  • 58:22
    what do you like to read
  • 58:24
    besides persuasion books um I hate to
  • 58:28
    say it but I don't read a lot of books
  • 58:30
    there are many years I've written more
  • 58:32
    books than I've read and that's
  • 58:34
    literally true part of it is that you
  • 58:37
    can glean the essence of most books
  • 58:39
    pretty quickly you know it from other
  • 58:41
    sources but part of it is also that I
  • 58:44
    don't enjoy fiction so so pure fiction
  • 58:48
    and I can now give you the the real
  • 58:52
    reason for that so for years I couldn't
  • 58:54
    tell people the real reason I didn't
  • 58:55
    like fiction there's a lot of people
  • 58:57
    that don't like fiction so let's start
  • 58:58
    with that well that's good to know
  • 59:00
    basing not alone if you're my dog
  • 59:03
    running around the background there that
  • 59:04
    scan your spare noise the things that I
  • 59:08
    can imagine just by closing my eyes
  • 59:11
    because I am a professional creative I
  • 59:15
    believe that every human capability has
  • 59:18
    this big range you know where most
  • 59:20
    people are average and some people are
  • 59:22
    terrible and some people are great so in
  • 59:23
    the same way that I'm terrible at music
  • 59:26
    let's say I have no musical ear
  • 59:28
    whatsoever my ability to imagine is
  • 59:32
    probably hard too hard to know for sure
  • 59:35
    but probably extraordinary just
  • 59:38
    based on the volume of new ideas I
  • 59:40
    created any in any moment and I'm a very
  • 59:42
    visual visual imaginer and so I can
  • 59:48
    create my own fiction in my head just by
  • 59:52
    closing my eyes and it's better and more
  • 59:54
    interesting more tuned to me than a book
  • 59:56
    and books are work I'm closing my eyes
  • 1:00:00
    is not and I get exactly what I want
  • 1:00:02
    anytime I want
  • 1:00:03
    now I feel sorry for anybody who can't
  • 1:00:06
    sort of build an entire story in her
  • 1:00:08
    head instantly but I can you started
  • 1:00:11
    with with the ISDN crowd but you were
  • 1:00:13
    kind of a techie or do you think that
  • 1:00:15
    you're never worried techie i I was a
  • 1:00:18
    programmer at a very low level in other
  • 1:00:20
    words I did it professionally but when
  • 1:00:22
    we what were you programming in usually
  • 1:00:25
    just well basic and doing easy things
  • 1:00:29
    for the the deck you know the VAX back
  • 1:00:32
    in the day so programming a basic was
  • 1:00:35
    just for internal you know financial
  • 1:00:38
    reports and easy stuff and I built a few
  • 1:00:42
    utility programs they got used and I
  • 1:00:44
    built some video games and in my own
  • 1:00:47
    time actual you know graphic video games
  • 1:00:51
    but it took me so long to build one that
  • 1:00:54
    the entire industry had moved to so far
  • 1:00:56
    in the six months it would take me to
  • 1:00:58
    build one that no longer look like like
  • 1:01:00
    a game anybody would ever buy so I
  • 1:01:03
    couldn't I couldn't keep up with the
  • 1:01:04
    companies that we're doing so I was tech
  • 1:01:07
    to go that way but I I think I'm more
  • 1:01:09
    I'm more about the talent stack which I
  • 1:01:13
    talked about the the idea of building
  • 1:01:15
    lots of different talents and stacking
  • 1:01:17
    until you have something that's unique
  • 1:01:19
    even if even if you're not great at any
  • 1:01:21
    of those things so I'm certainly not
  • 1:01:23
    great or even really good at anything in
  • 1:01:26
    technology but I'm pretty comfortable
  • 1:01:28
    around it you know when you came you saw
  • 1:01:30
    me working with a bunch of new equipment
  • 1:01:33
    put together a new studio set up for
  • 1:01:35
    myself and I like that stuff yeah right
  • 1:01:39
    so you have kept up but you're a seem to
  • 1:01:41
    be a Mac head at the moment I've gone
  • 1:01:45
    back and forth for most of my career I
  • 1:01:47
    was a double platform guy because you
  • 1:01:50
    just needed you just always needed the
  • 1:01:52
    other needed you just always needed the
  • 1:01:52
    you know if you're doing a lot of
  • 1:01:54
    licensing and working with people around
  • 1:01:55
    the world you can't have one platform
  • 1:01:57
    but at the moment the Mac pretty much
  • 1:02:00
    gives me everything I need so I
  • 1:02:01
    abandoned Windows and you use the iPhone
  • 1:02:05
    exclusively yeah I like the whole you
  • 1:02:08
    know I want to start stop you there
  • 1:02:09
    because you already credited Google with
  • 1:02:12
    pretty much saving your life when it
  • 1:02:13
    came to the research on this dysphonia
  • 1:02:16
    yeah and now you end up turning your
  • 1:02:19
    back on them and going with an iPhone
  • 1:02:21
    well Apple does a real good job of
  • 1:02:24
    making all my all my devices work
  • 1:02:26
    together and you know somewhat
  • 1:02:28
    seamlessly Google also does but just a
  • 1:02:32
    little less user interface love so that
  • 1:02:38
    makes a big difference to me what kind
  • 1:02:40
    of car do you drive
  • 1:02:40
    I've got a 2011 x5 BMW and an SUV ah
  • 1:02:46
    that's it you don't have a second car
  • 1:02:49
    low why do I need two cars just me get
  • 1:02:52
    bored yeah I don't like cars I'm not a
  • 1:02:53
    car guy oh so if you go out to dinner
  • 1:02:56
    what kind of what level of restaurant do
  • 1:02:58
    you go to you go to a high-end place
  • 1:02:59
    low-end place a hamburger place what do
  • 1:03:01
    you like if I'm your gourmet you collect
  • 1:03:05
    wine I don't drink at all and when I did
  • 1:03:09
    I didn't drink wine I'm not an alcoholic
  • 1:03:12
    I know you you're thinking that you're
  • 1:03:14
    all thinking that right now aren't you
  • 1:03:15
    did he stop because he's an alcoholic
  • 1:03:17
    no I developed I developed a some kind
  • 1:03:20
    of weird reaction to it and then I just
  • 1:03:22
    stopped and realized hey I don't need
  • 1:03:25
    this I feel better if I just never have
  • 1:03:27
    a drink I'm just hello there it would
  • 1:03:29
    save money if we went to high-end
  • 1:03:30
    restaurants I can tell you that so the
  • 1:03:34
    answer your question is my girlfriend
  • 1:03:36
    Christina and I have tried a bunch of
  • 1:03:39
    you know top restaurants just for the
  • 1:03:41
    experience of it and they weren't really
  • 1:03:43
    that good I got to say they weren't
  • 1:03:45
    better than a mid-level restaurant I
  • 1:03:47
    don't know why people go to these top
  • 1:03:50
    Michelin star restaurants I won't name
  • 1:03:52
    names why not they were they were not
  • 1:03:54
    impressive but I will tell you that the
  • 1:03:57
    French Laundry was impressive that just
  • 1:04:00
    knocked my socks off yeah but other than
  • 1:04:04
    that my socks off yeah but other than
  • 1:04:04
    now I like a good a good Italian
  • 1:04:07
    tablecloths restaurant and I'm happy so
  • 1:04:10
    I went through a whole couple sheets
  • 1:04:12
    here and I hate to do this but I'm gonna
  • 1:04:13
    do it anyway it's because of I had this
  • 1:04:16
    theory about interviewing I was working
  • 1:04:18
    on it would it it was mainly to preclude
  • 1:04:21
    what I'm gonna ask next which is what
  • 1:04:25
    should I've asked you that I didn't ask
  • 1:04:28
    well you haven't asked me about my
  • 1:04:32
    startup which well let's do that so that
  • 1:04:36
    the startup the name of the company is
  • 1:04:38
    when hub when hub all one word and the
  • 1:04:42
    app were focusing on right now is called
  • 1:04:44
    interface by went up and if you can
  • 1:04:47
    imagine it's like a tinder for experts
  • 1:04:50
    meaning that it's people who are online
  • 1:04:52
    and available right now for a video call
  • 1:04:54
    and it could be any topic so anybody can
  • 1:04:57
    sign up for an expert anybody can use it
  • 1:04:59
    to make a connection and it's a dating
  • 1:05:02
    app and no it's not a dating OS for
  • 1:05:04
    experts it's for anybody who wants to
  • 1:05:07
    charge for their time on a video call so
  • 1:05:11
    it could be a consultant it could be an
  • 1:05:13
    expert on some technology but it could
  • 1:05:15
    also be some psychologist it could be
  • 1:05:18
    your you know just somebody who's
  • 1:05:21
    visiting your grandmother who's who
  • 1:05:24
    needs some medical care and maybe the
  • 1:05:26
    kids want to call in and the
  • 1:05:28
    professional just takes the call and
  • 1:05:30
    says yeah I'm checking on your
  • 1:05:31
    grandmother she's taking her pills it
  • 1:05:33
    could be any kind of medical financial
  • 1:05:37
    any realm
  • 1:05:38
    it could be just somebody who wants to
  • 1:05:40
    spend time with somebody while they're
  • 1:05:42
    eating because they're lonely you know
  • 1:05:43
    somebody might just say I just need
  • 1:05:45
    somebody to talk to you and anybody can
  • 1:05:47
    set their price and the experts will be
  • 1:05:51
    determined by you know ratings just like
  • 1:05:53
    any other any other service you'll get a
  • 1:05:55
    star rating from the people who use you
  • 1:05:57
    and we think it could change everything
  • 1:06:00
    from education to health care to you
  • 1:06:04
    know could help people with PTSD if they
  • 1:06:06
    have somebody to talk to you could
  • 1:06:08
    reduce suicide because you've got
  • 1:06:10
    somebody to talk to you it could be
  • 1:06:12
    quite transformative who's we we is the
  • 1:06:16
    the team
  • 1:06:17
    and whose idea was this to begin with or
  • 1:06:19
    you just the money guy so I'm more than
  • 1:06:23
    the money guy and it's the third product
  • 1:06:26
    that the same team has developed so
  • 1:06:29
    we've done our pivoting this specific
  • 1:06:31
    idea was Nick Galliani who's our CTO and
  • 1:06:36
    co-founder and he initially had the idea
  • 1:06:41
    and we refined it from there but I get I
  • 1:06:44
    get pretty involved in the the look in
  • 1:06:46
    the field and the business end of it
  • 1:06:48
    when this began I think we're about
  • 1:06:51
    three years into it the new product is
  • 1:06:54
    only just the same out yeah it's it's
  • 1:06:57
    been in stores the original version was
  • 1:06:59
    crypto only in other words you had to
  • 1:07:02
    pay in our own crypto it was an ICO
  • 1:07:04
    still as an IC oh by the way and now
  • 1:07:07
    we're on an exchange or two and where we
  • 1:07:11
    can take credit cards now what's the
  • 1:07:13
    crypto called is the when whe N and L a
  • 1:07:17
    token the exchange you can you can buy
  • 1:07:21
    that now you a fan of crypto Oh fan is
  • 1:07:27
    probably too strong a word
  • 1:07:30
    I think the blockchain is probably here
  • 1:07:33
    to stay or whatever it evolves to but
  • 1:07:37
    I'm no blockchain expert and I think it
  • 1:07:41
    has this use we'll we'll see the battle
  • 1:07:44
    between you know government control and
  • 1:07:46
    people who want to you know be free of
  • 1:07:49
    government control we'll see who wins
  • 1:07:51
    it'll be interesting the government
  • 1:07:52
    always wins it feels like it feels like
  • 1:07:55
    that's how it's gonna go yeah I don't
  • 1:07:57
    see any any other alternative because
  • 1:08:00
    otherwise you have chaos not that I'm
  • 1:08:02
    rooting for the government anyway I
  • 1:08:05
    think that I'll do it I think we've got
  • 1:08:06
    everything covered unless you get
  • 1:08:07
    something else you didn't want to throw
  • 1:08:08
    in there cuz it's free
  • 1:08:09
    well free air timing probably promoted a
  • 1:08:12
    book Bigley and you got any new books
  • 1:08:15
    you're working on like a cartoon book
  • 1:08:16
    maybe something new do Dilbert
  • 1:08:18
    compilations so there's there's always a
  • 1:08:20
    new Dilbert compilation the latest one
  • 1:08:22
    is cubicles that make you envy the dead
  • 1:08:26
    it's reprints and Dilbert calendar will
  • 1:08:29
    be coming out and
  • 1:08:30
    months and there's always something I
  • 1:08:33
    got to buy what's the dog goober
  • 1:08:35
    characters little devil where'd that
  • 1:08:37
    come from
  • 1:08:38
    the dogbert's you have a you have a
  • 1:08:40
    devil character oh well that looks like
  • 1:08:43
    dogbert's oh you're thinking of cat
  • 1:08:45
    birth the in the in the comic the cat
  • 1:08:48
    bird is the director of human resources
  • 1:08:50
    and I made that character a cat because
  • 1:08:54
    your human resources director doesn't
  • 1:08:55
    care if you live or die just likes
  • 1:08:57
    playing with you okay well on that note
  • 1:09:01
    we'll end I want to thank you for
  • 1:09:02
    letting us letting me interview you
  • 1:09:06
    well thanks for coming all the way out
  • 1:09:08
    here and it was fun
  • 1:09:10
    yes great catching up we'll talk again
  • 1:09:13
    [Music] great catching up we'll talk again
  • 1:09:16
    imagine all the people who could do
  • 1:09:19
    [Music] all the people who could do
  • 1:09:27
    no no no stop bow take a bow oh yeah a
  • 1:09:32
    bow that was fantastic I mean there's
  • 1:09:37
    stuff in there that he isn't I've never
  • 1:09:39
    heard him talk about that so that's
  • 1:09:41
    because as far as I know he never has it
  • 1:09:43
    does I decided a couple of things I
  • 1:09:45
    think he doesn't even like to talk about
  • 1:09:46
    but he was very relaxed and he was very
  • 1:09:48
    meaningful to chatting about everything
  • 1:09:49
    what I liked knowing that we both have
  • 1:09:52
    Tourette's it makes me feel very
  • 1:09:53
    confident and very good about myself and
  • 1:09:56
    my friend Scott my brother from another
  • 1:09:58
    mother my shaken brother from another
  • 1:10:00
    mother my shaken brother from another
  • 1:10:01
    yeah as he said in there he says now I
  • 1:10:03
    can use it as the way you do as you hike
  • 1:10:10
    us on purpose and you say it's the
  • 1:10:11
    Tourette's just to try you know when a
  • 1:10:13
    sister estimated beside the point
  • 1:10:16
    we don't have an interviewer I'm sorry
  • 1:10:19
    we don't have a donation segment because
  • 1:10:20
    this has been taped in advance so we
  • 1:10:23
    want to mention everybody who helped us
  • 1:10:24
    out on this particular show that your
  • 1:10:29
    donations will be moved to the next show
  • 1:10:31
    and you'll be credited then on an extra
  • 1:10:33
    long segment on us on Thursday yes and I
  • 1:10:36
    love that we're just keeping our streak
  • 1:10:38
    going this seems to be the new way for
  • 1:10:39
    us we've done different things in the
  • 1:10:41
    past when we took a day off like wow we
  • 1:10:44
    took a day off and I think this is good
  • 1:10:48
    you know it's it's this is this is
  • 1:10:51
    another side of us of the show which i
  • 1:10:54
    think is very complimentary and I'd like
  • 1:10:56
    these I like the people you chose and
  • 1:10:58
    let me just remind everybody that to
  • 1:11:00
    support our show and this work that goes
  • 1:11:02
    on please remember us at let's go to the
  • 1:11:12
    interview with Dane hey Jon hey Dane so
  • 1:11:17
    much network you have to be here we have
  • 1:11:20
    you know still have to turn that all the
  • 1:11:22
    time but half the town is poles and the
  • 1:11:25
    circle certainly a lot of interest in it
  • 1:11:26
    there's a lot of respondent so let's
  • 1:11:28
    start with discussing what you guys are
  • 1:11:33
    doing at Zhan
  • 1:11:34
    in terms of rolling out this fiber and
  • 1:11:38
    it's fiber-to-the-home
  • 1:11:39
    yeah we're building primarily fiber to
  • 1:11:42
    the home networks we also do connections
  • 1:11:45
    to schools and libraries municipalities
  • 1:11:49
    and and smart city and traffic signal
  • 1:11:52
    applications and we build to cell towers
  • 1:11:54
    but those are all kind of the
  • 1:11:57
    applications layered on top of the base
  • 1:11:59
    foundation which is the fiber to the
  • 1:12:01
    home network
  • 1:12:02
    now before you when you just around the
  • 1:12:05
    time you guys announces and what is the
  • 1:12:07
    monthly charge for this fiber to the
  • 1:12:09
    home so the fiber to home service is
  • 1:12:12
    it's $40 a month for the first year
  • 1:12:15
    after that introductory time it goes up
  • 1:12:18
    by 10 as the month-to-month rate is 50
  • 1:12:20
    currently so and this is gigabit
  • 1:12:24
    symmetric so 1,000 megabits down and up
  • 1:12:27
    to the home along with a home telephone
  • 1:12:32
    line with all of the voice features like
  • 1:12:35
    you know caller ID and voicemail
  • 1:12:38
    we've even integrated Robo call blocking
  • 1:12:40
    which is a real annoyance and unlimited
  • 1:12:43
    nationwide calling and unlimited calling
  • 1:12:45
    to fix lines in 66 countries so if you
  • 1:12:49
    have business or relatives in you know
  • 1:12:52
    England South Africa Japan etc your
  • 1:12:55
    calls to those countries are are no
  • 1:12:58
    charge as well so it's it's a you know I
  • 1:13:01
    think a really innovative well it's
  • 1:13:02
    probably all in Christ's point compared
  • 1:13:05
    to everything else and the only and I'd
  • 1:13:06
    like don't mind you going on and on
  • 1:13:08
    about because one of the purposes of
  • 1:13:10
    conversation like this is to inform
  • 1:13:13
    people that this sort of deal I'm
  • 1:13:16
    assuming you're not losing your but on
  • 1:13:18
    this when it's finally when all said and
  • 1:13:20
    done it and as you cost it out over time
  • 1:13:22
    or you wouldn't be doing it at all yeah
  • 1:13:26
    I mean what's what's exciting for me
  • 1:13:29
    about the business is that you know the
  • 1:13:32
    delivery of Internet and of telephone
  • 1:13:35
    service the costs of of those have
  • 1:13:39
    really declined substantially although
  • 1:13:41
    consumption particularly of Internet is
  • 1:13:43
    climbing but the cost of delivering it
  • 1:13:46
    are declining
  • 1:13:47
    and but most consumers you know you're
  • 1:13:52
    moving into a new place you bought a
  • 1:13:53
    house you're renting a new apartment and
  • 1:13:55
    you kind of have this moment where you
  • 1:13:58
    go oh shoot I got a call the cable
  • 1:13:59
    company and get my internet and then
  • 1:14:01
    they railroad you into a big bundle of a
  • 1:14:03
    bunch of TV you know linear conventional
  • 1:14:05
    TV offerings and you know you end up
  • 1:14:09
    spending you know maybe it's you know 70
  • 1:14:12
    80 $100 the first year but in the long
  • 1:14:15
    run I think the average household on you
  • 1:14:19
    know Internet telecom TV they're
  • 1:14:21
    spending over $200 you know set-top box
  • 1:14:23
    rentals regional sports networks local
  • 1:14:25
    broadcast fees I mean this is really an
  • 1:14:27
    archaic way to do this and we see a
  • 1:14:30
    really interesting and disruptive
  • 1:14:31
    opportunity and you know people want
  • 1:14:33
    really fast internet you know no
  • 1:14:36
    nonsense a couple of companies around
  • 1:14:39
    the country and in Canada and Canada for
  • 1:14:41
    example to cows has been rolling out a
  • 1:14:45
    which was usually a very old internet
  • 1:14:48
    company that was involved with shareware
  • 1:14:50
    and I'm the Downloads and they had a
  • 1:14:54
    stock I acquired some of their stock by
  • 1:14:58
    accident when it was $3 uh-huh it was $3
  • 1:15:02
    because it's accidentally well I was
  • 1:15:04
    accidental because I was I had a company
  • 1:15:07
    that was sold to somebody else's
  • 1:15:08
    somebody else I have this shot these
  • 1:15:09
    shares you know how it goes and so it
  • 1:15:14
    skyrocketed to about $60 Oh and I
  • 1:15:18
    couldn't figure out why they were you
  • 1:15:19
    know they were selling to I guess ISP
  • 1:15:23
    web addresses or you know yeah domain
  • 1:15:25
    registry right and then all of a sudden
  • 1:15:28
    but when they started skyrockets when
  • 1:15:30
    they started putting in fiber they
  • 1:15:33
    started putting in fiber and I think
  • 1:15:34
    it's fiber-to-the-home it's the same
  • 1:15:35
    thing now yep so I have to assume this
  • 1:15:38
    there's a lot of potential here not
  • 1:15:41
    before I get into the details of the
  • 1:15:43
    technology I want to ask about the about
  • 1:15:47
    the wiring itself in Albany and Berkeley
  • 1:15:51
    and I guess you're putting some in San
  • 1:15:52
    Francisco in the neighborhoods where
  • 1:15:54
    you're putting this there's two or three
  • 1:15:56
    things I've noticed one you have a lot
  • 1:15:58
    of trucks and the trucks are very well
  • 1:16:01
    Brandon I might add I've seen examples
  • 1:16:03
    of that not being the case with other
  • 1:16:05
    companies so on the side of all the
  • 1:16:08
    trucks you have it has the sonic logo
  • 1:16:10
    and the price yep it's actually quite
  • 1:16:13
    funny it's like a bad billboard and it
  • 1:16:15
    is and so they're floating around and
  • 1:16:17
    they're stringing because we have
  • 1:16:19
    telephone poles around most of this area
  • 1:16:21
    there's some underground but most of its
  • 1:16:23
    telephone poles and it's like now these
  • 1:16:27
    there's so much stuff hanging from these
  • 1:16:29
    poles and what you guys are stirring it
  • 1:16:31
    looks heavy so yeah what are you
  • 1:16:35
    stringing it so I'm gonna ask what are
  • 1:16:37
    you stringing up to place is it do you
  • 1:16:40
    have to pay a fee to the pole companies
  • 1:16:43
    what kind of wire is this is it a big
  • 1:16:46
    heavy glass cable with a bunch of fibers
  • 1:16:49
    in it is it plastic what yeah so yeah
  • 1:16:52
    it's you touched on a lot of areas there
  • 1:16:55
    and let me try and dive into some of
  • 1:16:57
    that stuff we are building mostly in
  • 1:17:01
    residential locations where the
  • 1:17:03
    utilities are Ariel that is overhead on
  • 1:17:06
    wood utility poles and if you look at
  • 1:17:08
    those poles traditionally they've hosted
  • 1:17:10
    you know electricity up at the top and
  • 1:17:14
    then cut in the middle of the pole
  • 1:17:16
    telecommunications you know big old